Carey spoke, too, about Afghanistan and Iraq, which he described as "danger spots" that "actually increase the drive toward terrorism." The world will be safer the sooner troops leave those nations, but such action can't occur yet, he said.

Q. What do you plan to preach about during your stay here?

A. I'm just speaking to a church group this evening. I'm going to be talking about reminiscences of an archbishop....When I come to Greenville I'm going to be doing a lot of teaching on Islam and how we as Christians react to Islam, how we can get on with this very powerful neighbor of ours, what do we have in common and where do we differ.

Q. I can't help but ask your thoughts on this ongoing conversa tion...and reaction after Pope Benedict made his comments probably two weeks or so ago now....What have you made of all that?

A. It didn't seem to relate to the message at all until one starts to look at the theme and what he was talking about. The secular mind can understand a God that's loving but cannot understand a God that's brutal and murders. So I think that in the pope's mind there was a link there: What kind of God do we believe in?

Now, I then rushed to the pope's defense and said that if people had looked at it carefully -- it's a brilliant, brilliant essay on faith and secularism today -- and the kind of thing he was saying indirectly about Islam, the Muslims need to face up to. And the key question is why is Islam associated with terrorism? And it's no good saying that the terrorists are extremists.

There's something about the Islamic scriptures (that gives) justification for violence. There can be no denial about that, actually. So there needs to be a really frank discussion.

Q. A lot of people who would call themselves Christians have com mitted acts of violence and used Scripture to justify (them). Do you see a difference?

A. I see a profound difference, really. Because Islam -- Muhammad -- conquered by the sword. He died a political leader and Jesus died on a cross. So there are two different concepts. I mean, Jesus said before his death to Simon Peter, "Put up your sword." So he didn't want violence done to his neighbor.

But you're absolutely right. There's been a lot of terrorism and violence done in the name of Christianity, which goes against the faith itself....

And so I don't want to argue that Christians take the high moral ground on this. We can't. But what we have to say is we mustn't allow the terrorists to take Scripture over and bend it...If Islam is a peaceful religion, then the moderates must deny the martyrs in terrorism and say that no terrorist actually is a martyr.

Q. Last year we talked about divisions in the Anglican Communion, particularly those that have developed over issues of sexuality and the ordination of gays and lesbians. How would you describe the state of the Anglican Communion these days as opposed to a year and a half ago?

A. I now think that the global south and a lot of conservative churches in this country and in other parts of the world are going to pull away....

If there are now two warring parties, say, the conservatives and the liberals, will they all be able to look to the archbishop to validate their position? Now, that's the trick....Although it would be very odd if they speak to him but not to one another -- if both of them have contact with him and validate their ministries in relation to the Archbishop of Canterbury it's like two separate churches having one archbishop -- so they're talking to him, but not to one another. It'd seem to be crazy ecclesiastical geometry.

Q. What do you think it would take for the two sides to talk to one another?

A. I think they are talking. There's a lot of sensible people on both sides who are talking and trying to resolve the situation. I do think, though, that by and large the American church has been irresponsible with regard to this because the appointment of Gene Robinson has created ... division. It wrecked mission in the church. It's decimated congregations....

There's no doubt about it, we must care for homosexuals in the life of the church. But there is an issue here of discipline, of obedience to scripture and all that. So I don't think any church can rush into these matters and you'll notice that churches like the Roman Catholic church and mainstream Christian bodies, denominations, are not rushing into resolving this quickly.

Q. How would you handle the current situ ation if you were still the archbishop?

A. No, I'm not going to answer that one....My prayers and thoughts are with Rowan Williams.

Q. As for the dioceses in the United States who have rejected the authority of the presid ing bishop-elect here, what would you say to those?

A. My heart goes out to the conservatives....I mean, it's a very difficult situation for the Episcopal Church in this country. No one wins, in a situation like this. No winners. All are losers. And my support is for the conservatives, without actually losing friends with the liberals I know in the church. I mean, I get on very well with them....We disagree on this matter. But it's possible to agree on so many other things.

Q. In an interview last month the Anglican archbishop of Cape Town, South Africa, said that the challenge is "how to live together with differences and otherness" and when you were last here...you mentioned the challenge of creating community. And I wondered first of all, if you still see that as a major challenge for the church today, and...secondly, how do individual congregations as well as the institu tion of the Anglican Communion respond to that challenge?

A. Yes, I think the archbishop of Cape Town is absolutely right, how do we live with differences? I mean, I fully believe that a church can have homosexuals there and they can be received lovingly and treated as equals. That's happened in my churches in the past, even though they knew where I stood on the issue of practicing homosexuality and particularly, those in the priesthood. But nevertheless, it's possible to live together and the real challenge that he's getting at is creating community and finding ways in which there can be as much inclusivity as possible....

Now, I've privately said to a couple of people, there is one way in which this could be resolved in America and that would be to give the most generous provision of pastoral care to those conservatives to allow them to have a bishop of their choice who can come in and look after them, confirm, and so on. But sadly that has been rejected by the American House of Bishops.

So if over here there was a less cowboys and Indians approach to this.... I just offer not because Britain's got the answer, but maybe we compromise far, far more over there than some Americans over here. But maybe it's the frontier spirit over here, there's a sense in which Americans move very quickly and decisions are made very quickly.

Q. I imagine when you come here that con servatives or others may ask you, "What should we do?"

A. Constantly. And I would always say: "Look, it's not my job on the line. I'm retired now and all I can do is to urge you to stay in the church as long as you possibly can. Don't leave. Wait 'til you're thrown out. Because it's your church. You haven't changed the doctrine at all. It's other people who are doing that. So stay there. Get on with the job and remember there are many more important things than homosexuality. The mission of the church. Poverty in the world....Only leave when the circumstances are such that you are forced to do so, and in the meantime, get on with the job with courage and hope." Advertisement

Q. So much attention both by the media as well as at church meetings and those sorts of things has been paid to these fissures.... Is it warranted?

A. There's something about the Episcopal tradition where we sometimes wash our dirty linen in public. You know, we get involved in life's problems, and I'm very proud of it from that point of view....The problem facing us upon this issue is that when I left office I saw no sign of this happening at all. It didn't seem to be on the horizon and then suddenly, it just erupted.

I think it comes back to the issue that some people in the American church felt that...the time had come. They saw it as a prophetic act that they are anticipating the future, and that one day all the churches will have to go down this way.

Now, they could be right. They might be wrong. And so, who knows? All I say is that it's irresponsible to do as quickly as this.

Q. Do you find that the conversation dis tracts from some of those other issues?

A. Clearly. I mean I'm amazed that the conservative churches are doing such a good job when I see the amount of time and energy that's going on on this, and the meetings they go to and so on....But there's a problem. They could do far, far more if they were undistracted from this issue.

Q. What would the church look like if it did focus on those issues that you mentioned earlier?

A. The very heart of my ministry over the years has been mission.... I don't mean just evangelism. I mean that Jesus came and showed amazing compassion for the poor, the underclasses and so on, and so he devoted his time to them. And the church at its best is always focusing on being an outward-looking church, serving the community, putting down roots among the poor and being at the cutting edge of where the issues are.

Q. I think we talked a little bit last time, too, about declining numbers that so many mainline congregations are facing these days.... How would that change in focus af fect those numbers?

A. I don't think we ought to worry about numbers, actually....There are a lot of people who don't want the church because it gets in the way. The church speaks very uncomfortable things about holiness, about goodness, about a simpler lifestyle. And a lot of people in your country and my country don't want news like that. That gets in the way of what they want to do. So I think we mustn't be too worried, actually, about declining numbers because the focus we ought to be putting is actually on doing the job well. Having said that, I do believe if you do the job well, then you're going to attract people.

Q. I didn't know if you'd want to speak more about particular issues that you'd like to see either individual congregations or the An glican Communion as a whole address? Would there be particular ways you'd like to see the church, for example, address poverty?

A. I think our tradition is doing a wonderful job on poverty reduction and HIV-AIDS. I think American congregations could well focus a little more on supporting the peace process in the Middle East. The issue of the Holy Land is the key driver in peace throughout the world. And if we can actually get a lasting peace settlement in the Holy Land with the Palestinians having a viable state, Israel having secure boundaries, then we could achieve something quite remarkable without going to war. And the key to it is America....I think only America could actually lean on Israelis and say, "You've got to negotiate." And I think if there was that degree of (leaning), I think that would then breathe a bit of hope into the Palestinian mind.

Q. You've talked about a lot of challenges both that the church specifically or congrega tions might be facing as well as globally. Signs of hope that you see in your travels?

A. Oh yes....We place a lot of emphasis upon on the clash of civilization and all that kind of thing, but actually in many respects all (these), I think, are rather like birth pangs, you know?...There's a lot of new life when I look around the world.

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