washingtonpost.com: Good Afternoon and welcome to Viewpoint. Today, Dr. Michael S. Horton, professor of apologetics and systematic theology at Westminster Seminary California and author of numerous books, is here to discuss his latest book, Christless Christianity.

Michael S. Horton:
First, let me say thank you to everyone who is joining this conversation right now. It's an honor to be here, and one of the main reasons for the book was to encourage conversation. With that said, we will get started in just a few minutes.

_______________________

Ontario, Canada: What is the difference between personal reading of the word of God, and hearing the preaching from the word of God? -Eric Castleman

Michael S. Horton: Eric, great question! Eric, the apostles make a point of saying that the Spirit creates faith in our hearts by the preaching of the gospel. It's not just the message, but the medium that's important (as Paul especially emphasizes in Romans 10). We don't climb up to God to get Christ; Christ comes down to give himself to us through the Good News that we hear. Hearing means receiving. We're not active, but recipients. Now, there's a time to do what God commands as well, but that's not what comes first. What comes first is what God does: namely, his giving the gift of Christ and all of his benefits to us. As we sit there, he judges and forgives us. This isn't to downplay the importance of reading the Bible, but it does give priority to our being gathered together with other hearers to receive, again and again, God's gift, which is nothing less than Christ himself.

_______________________

Norfolk, Va.: What do you consider to be the greatest threat to Orthodox (biblical) Christianity today?

Michael S. Horton: Shallowness. It is far worse than heresy. At least heretics take the gospel seriously enough to distort and deny it. And heresy always makes the church think more deeply about what it believes and why it believes it. However, shallowness is deadly for the Christian Faith.

If you just need some helpful advice, encouragement, inspiration, and uplift from your religion, you just need enough water to get your feet wet. A few slogans and insights will suffice. But Christianity bets all its chips on certain events that happened in history. "If Christ is not raised," Paul said, "then we are of all people the most to be pitied." After all, he says, we are false witnesses-perjurers-and Jesus is a fraud. You have not lived a happier, healthier, more fulfilling life if Christ was not raised from the dead; you've been duped, and we're accomplices in that, Paul said (1 Corinthians 15).

The gospel is not a religious feeling, a spiritual journey within, or pious advice. It is a story in the words of the British playwright Dorothy Sayers, "the greatest story ever told." From this unfolding drama of redemption from Genesis to Revelation arise doctrines, which lead to wonder and thanksgiving, motivating grateful love and service to our neighbors. All of this requires that we submit to the discipline of listening, understanding, and growing in our faith.

But we are channel-surfers. We like to create our own soothing sampler of New Age mysticism, self-help lingo, conservative ideas about virtue, and maybe something to help us keep our kids sober and celibate. Accommodating to this shallow narcissism, churches have largely abandoned their responsibility to teach the rising generations even the basics of the Faith.

Generic religion and spirituality can survive a mindless conservatism or a mindless liberalism, but Christianity cannot. It thrives in an atmosphere of questioning, engaging, wrestling, listening, and reading. If we are only looking for whatever "works"-for the moment, at least for what's entertaining, fun, or affirming, we will always be spiritual infants, if Christians at all.

_______________________

Wichita, Kan.: I have visited some of the Christian Bible Colleges around the country and have sat in some of the classes being offered. I have also visited churches planted by these colleges and they all have become infected by this virus and are now promoters of this Christless Christianity. Question: Since this problem is so sweeping across the country and denominations, do I contact the Presidents of these Colleges? What can we say or do to change the tide? Or are we on the "Downgrade" that Charles Spurgeon warned us about so many years ago?

Michael S. Horton: You put your finger on a major argument in my book. Conservatives often identify "Christless Christianity" with liberalism. However, it is hard to find Christ-centered preaching in so-called "Bible-believing" churches today. Everybody seems to be interested in other things these days.

The prophets, Jesus, Paul, Augustine, the Protestant Reformers, Spurgeon, and countless others had to confront the heresy of self-salvation. It is our default setting to believe that we are basically good people who could be a little better with the right game-plan, support-network, and coaching. "God helps those who help themselves": according to surveys, most evangelicals thought that this was a biblical quotation, when it actually comes from Ben Franklin. The Good News that the Bible proclaims, however, is that God saves those who cannot save themselves.

The first thing we have to realize if there is going to be genuine reformation in the churches today is that the self-trust that engenders Christless Christianity is not just a problem in some times and places, but is the natural drift of our fallen heart. We have to be taught out of it our whole lives as Christians. One generation assumes the gospel; the next generation forgets it; the next one abandons it. But each of us will be constantly tempted to fall back on ourselves instead of on Christ unless Christ is seen as the center and circumference of the church's preaching, teaching, the sacraments, and mission.

_______________________

Seattle, Wash.: I have been a Christian since I was 13. My church then prayed for the salvation of sinners...but never accepted anyone who had sinned or didn't share their strict beliefs. More and more the church goers judge their neighbors and even relatives for being horrible sinners when these so called "horrible sinners" choose to be open to choices such as love and forgiveness. Choices such as these are seen weak by the "stronger" more righteous Christians. You know who these fake Christians are, they think all other religions and believers are weak and wrong. Then there is the whole, feverish belief that these un-meek Christian would rather die than allow someone their personal unrestricted rights to their own bodies.My question is, what kind of Christian believes in killing thy neighbor with war or bombs or shunning thy fellow man, if thy fellow man disagrees with his beliefs? Because I know that most evangelicals are so biased that they don't care who or what they destroy for a couple of control issues over people and their freedom of choice.

Michael S. Horton: If you send me your name and address, I'll send you Christless Christianity-not because I want to push my book, but because it's mainly because of people like you that I wrote it. (Just send your information to us using the "contact" page of the christlesschristianity.org site). I know the church world you are talking about and share similar experiences growing up in it.

I know that it will sound simplistic, but here goes. Religion and spirituality are chiefly about how to attain power: power over oneself, one's destiny, others, and even God. The gospel, by contrast, is God's power for salvation (Rom 1:19). It is God's means of saving us, not a "to-do" list for saving ourselves. As Paul said in Romans 10, our native religion is "works-righteousness": If I can ascend up to heaven to pull God down, or descend into the depths to raise Christ from the dead, then I (or we) will finally have (fill in the blank). But "the righteousness that is by faith in Christ," says Paul, responds differently. It simply hears God deliver his Son to us and receives this Good News. That person is declared righteous then and there. The verdict of the Last Judgment is already rendered here and now. "There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus" (Rom 8:1).

Jesus said he came not to save those who thought they were righteous, but sinners. In one parable he told, a religious leader prayed zealously, "God, I thank you that I am not like this sinful tax-collector," while the tax-collector felt too guilty to raise his eyes to God and simply cried out, "Lord, be merciful to me, a sinner." "I tell you the truth," Jesus said, "that man went home to his house justified that day rather than the other." If you believe that your own righteousness is "like filthy rags" (Is 64:6), and that your only righteousness before God is that holiness of Christ in which he has wrapped you, then you come to see that your moral superiority itself is the deepest sin. Christ calls us to die to ourselves: to our fake righteousness as well as to our more obvious sins.

So when we are gathered by Christ around his Word, his Table, and Baptism, we are not active agents of self-salvation in a position to judge everyone else, but fellow sinners who have been justified (declared righteous) through faith in Christ. We are co-heirs of God's entire estate, including his Spirit who is gradually conforming us to Christ's image and producing the fruit of righteousness and peace in hearts where strife, domination, envy, and bitterness prevailed. It's often been said that the church is a hospital for sinners, not a country club for saints. If we really believed that, wouldn't it make a difference?

_______________________

Woodland, Calif.: My family recently left a Bible-focused Baptist church when a new pastor came along who is attempting to change everything about the church into the Rick Warren seeker-centered church paradigm. How do you deal with parishioners who are staying because they believe the new way of doing things is merely a stylistic change and don't see that Jesus is not being preached anymore?

Thank you

Michael S. Horton: Wow, have you ever hit on an important issue! First, I admire Rick Warren's zeal. I do not question his commitment to encouraging evangelism and discipleship. We've had some fruitful conversations over the years and he agrees that the gospel is being assumed-taken for granted-in evangelical as well as mainline churches today. My disagreement is over the issue you so clearly picked out in your question. Whatever we believe on paper, it's what we do when we gather as God's people that shows what we regard as front-and-center. One of the arguments I make in the book is that we are all capable of obscuring Christ and his saving work for us with perfectly justifiable-even important-distractions.

When Pastor Warren speaks of the gospel as God's giving us another chance to make him happy (Jesus came to give us a "do-over," as in golf, he on a national TV program last Christmas), that's not good news. My problem isn't that I've just chipped a few balls into the lake, but that if I had a thousand chances to do things over again, I'd still fall short of God's purpose for my life. I need to be rescued, not just redirected. The difference between the two is more than style; it's substance.

When you carve up the body of Christ into niche demographics (with different services, each using a different style of music), you just get religious consumers rather than a truly diverse communion of saints united by "one Lord, one faith, and one baptism." So if the basic message is "try harder to find God's purpose and fulfill it; it's deeds, not creeds," and the means of God's grace (preaching, baptism, and the Supper) are replaced with our means of commitment, it's not just style. It's substance. And regardless of what one believes formally, the consequence over the long haul is that it's difficult to tell Christians apart from decent non-Christians who try to live a good life.

_______________________

Gettysburg, Pa.: I am often accused of "bashing" various churches because I am sometimes critical of the false doctrine that they teach. What is the correct balance of being caring and concerned about people, while also knowing that you must warn others of their extremely bad theology?

Michael S. Horton: A tough question. I know there have been times when I offered criticism more out of frustration or pride than out of genuine love and concern for others. That's not the way of Jesus Christ, who never snuffed out a flickering candle or broke off a bruised reed. Think of how the disciples consistently missed the point of Jesus' mission, even when he told them plainly again and again. He says he has come to die for our sins and be raised on the third day, and they keep changing the subject, back to them and their power and place in his kingdom. Yet he keeps coming back. He doesn't drop the subject. Sometimes he even exhibits a little frustration and rebukes them rather sharply. But he never writes them off and he allows them to tell their own misguided stories and to offer their own distorted interpretations, even as he challenges them.

_______________________

Marksville, La.: How do you get a ChristLess Christianity without Christ since HIS name is in Christianity.

Michael S. Horton: Well, look at it this way, his name is in Christmas, too, and that hasn't exactly guaranteed annual emphasis on God becoming flesh in the womb of a Jewish virgin for our redemption. The name of Jesus Christ has become a lucrative trademark, but the question is whether Jesus Christ himself who he is and what he did for us are front-and-center. Part of my argument in this book is that we have a lot of "Christian" things (t-shirts, aerobics, novels, and businesses), but nobody seems to know concrete particulars these days about who Jesus is, what he came to do, and how he achieved it. There are a lot of Christian book/gift stores out there that will sell you anything from "Christian" diet plans to bed-sheets with Bible verses on them, but you'll probably have trouble finding an accurate book summarizing the person and work of the Bible's central figure himself.

_______________________

Sturbridge, Mass.: What is this? You are coming from a primitive, un-evolved consciousness. This is called ethno-centrism. Spirituality is about personal transformation and this is symbolized by the mythological death and resurrection of Jesus. There is no historical independent attestation for a literal, historical Jesus. Do your homework with an objective mind. The only attestation is the bible, which is full of holes, superstition, and contradiction. The truth is that religion and spirituality are about evolution and transformation. Religion is evolving like everything else, albeit much more slowly due to people who cling to literalist interpretations of ancient myth and "theology." The very theology of a savior who had to die to save us from "God's wrath" is a shame based teaching that implied that God did not get it right the first time when he created our Souls in His image. It's nonsense and this is why Christianity is a dying religion.

Michael S. Horton: I don't think you would like my book very much. As your argument suggests, if "spirituality is merely about personal transformation," then of course it can be "symbolized by the mythological death and resurrection of Jesus"-or of any other religious figure who either did or did not actually live. But if spirituality is only about what happens inside of us, why would I or anyone else come to the subject with an open mind? We only need to open our minds to a reality that is outside of us and Christianity testifies to the resurrection of Jesus Christ in history. The concrete life, death, resurrection, ascension, and return of Christ in the flesh is simply unnecessary if the point of it all is merely inner enlightenment, moral uplift, and spiritual transformation.

Last year, my family had to evacuate our home due to the San Diego wildfires. I went from "I can handle this" (at about 4am) to "Let's get in the car!" (at about noon). If I had only my inner thoughts, experiences, and feelings to go by, I might never have left, but there was a fire truck driving by, telling everybody in our neighborhood to leave and head for safety. The fire department was not trying to make me feel bad about myself or my situation, but was simply telling me the facts of the crisis. God's wrath is a fact because he is holy and we are sinful. The Good News is that we don't have to face it: Look outside of yourself and flee to Christ!

_______________________

Seattle, Wash.: How do we avoid the middle ground of receiving unmerited grace but take advantage of it by continuing to sin or failing to bear the cross of Jesus Christ?

Michael S. Horton: I will have to refer to Paul's revolutionary Letter to the Romans, where he lays all of this out so clearly. For five chapters, he had explained how nobody can be saved by being good, but only by God's free gift of righteousness in Christ. Because God's standard of righteousness (his law) condemns everyone, the noisy clamor of excuses, alibis, and protestations of innocence is silenced. Only then does the Judge make a surprise move: justifying (declaring righteous) those who are in themselves unrighteous by imputing or crediting to them Christ's perfect obedience and atoning death through faith alone. The gospel is therefore not "What Would Jesus Do?", but "What Has Jesus Done?"-for those who didn't do what Jesus did! "Where sin abounds, grace abounds all the more," Paul says.

In the light of this astounding Good News, Paul anticipates the question you raise here: "Shall we then sin that grace may increase?" Isn't this an invitation to immorality: God likes to forgive, I like to sin; what a perfect relationship? We might imagine Paul responding, "No, don't you know that if you do, you'll lose your salvation-or at least rewards in heaven?" But even at this point Paul replies with the gospel rather than the law: When we are united to Christ by faith, we not only receive his righteousness as a new status before God, but are crucified, buried, and raised with him so that our old identity is now "dead" and we are "alive in Christ." It's like the Witness Protection Program, where one is given a totally new identity and then becomes that new person.

_______________________

Seattle, Wash.: I am a Christian who wholeheartedly agrees with your assessment of the church and the gospel. I believe that Christ is my propitiation and atonement. I love Jesus, and I desperately want to obey His commandments, but I cannot. What is wrong with me?

Michael S. Horton: You've just described the normal Christian life. In Romans 7, just after he had explained the amazing truth that the gospel changes our moral condition as well as our legal status, the Apostle Paul laments that he finds himself in a constant struggle. Often, that which he wants to do, and he knows is right, he does not do, and he often commits the same sins. If you really look within, you'll recognize that struggle and it will lead only to despair. But at the end of that chapter, Paul looks outside of himself, to Christ, and his confidence in God's favor toward him is restored. A weak faith clings to a strong Savior. It's not the quality of degree of your faith and repentance, but the quality of Christ's saving work for sinners that delivers us from the penalty and power of our sins.

_______________________

Traverse City, Mich.: How do people like Rev Hagee, Pat Robertson and even Jerry Falwell and their ilk justify their use of the name Jesus Christ? They drip of hatred and intolerance, except of course, for their points of view. I see nothing but ego trips by people who have not the slightest relationship in their behavior to what Jesus would have thought, done, said or written.

Michael S. Horton: You're exactly right. I refer to surveys and examples from a variety of Christian leaders and denominations to make that point. Suburban white churches, urban black churches, and much else that is out there comes under the same critique: We are turning churches into places where we are active as demographic market-niches, instead of being drawn together as receivers of grace in the only niche that really matters: namely, our being "in Christ."

_______________________

San Antonio, Tex.: I know a number of people who describe themselves as Evangelical or Fundamentalist Christians, apparently using the terms interchangeably. Most of them seem to feel that the main criteria for proclaiming oneself a Christian are 1.Opposing legal abortion. 2.Opposing gay marriage. I rarely hear Christ or even the Bible mentioned by any of them, yet they all but foam at the mouth when they get worked up over those two things I mentioned above. What is up with all this virulent "anti" stuff, and what do I say to people like that?

Michael S. Horton: On both the left and the right, churches have largely become perceived by most Americans today as political action committees. Pastors have to preach and teach the Scriptures, including the passages that discuss the value of life and marriage, but when we lose our confidence in the power of God's Spirit to change hearts and minds through his Word, we resort to manipulation and the use of political force. Recently, a prominent conservative Christian lobby in Washington called pastors to "step across the line" and preach sermons written by this political action committee. We see this routinely on both sides, with pastors endorsing candidates and even allowing them to address the congregation from the pulpit. In this kind of environment, the Bible is an irrelevant script and Christ is merely a mascot in the culture wars.

_______________________

Boston, Mass.: Is not the lack of sound doctrine and the falling away from the faith clearly prophesied in the NT? Should it surprise us that this is happening in the Church and western culture?

Michael S. Horton: You're certainly right: Paul warned Timothy that "in the last days" people would be "lovers of themselves," looking for prophets of health, wealth, and happiness who will tell them "whatever their itching ears want to hear." They will "not put up with sound doctrine," he says. However, the apostles routinely speak of "the last days" as the whole period from their own day until Christ returns. With Christ's resurrection from the dead, this present age of sin and death has been given a term-limit. Its time is running out, as the age to come breaks into this passing age through the proclamation of the gospel. So here we are, locked in the tension between the gifts that Christ has already poured out and is pouring out by his Spirit and the full realization of life everlasting in the future when we share in Christ's bodily resurrection. It has always been a conflict and there's no getting around it. These two ages are colliding and the kingdom of sin and death doesn't give up easily. It has lost the war, but it still has a lot of guerilla fighters in the hills. In fact, within each of us as Christians there is still a battle raging between faith and doubt, truth and error, righteousness and sin. All of this is to say that we shouldn't be surprised what is happening in the church and the world, but we also shouldn't use that as a cop-out to "fight the good fight."

_______________________

Anonymous, Va.: Is there really such a thing as heresy?

Michael S. Horton: Yes. The Bible speaks of people departing from the faith, a particular set of core beliefs: "the faith once and for all given to the saints" (Jude 4). The root of the word in Greek means "going one's own way." We are called not to blaze our own path in our own unique "personal relationship with Jesus," but to join the communion of saints with whom we await the return of our Savior.

_______________________

Fort Worth, Tex.: Dr. Horton, If the Church continues in this trend, in its abandonment of historical Christianity, confessionalism and dogmatic theology what can we expect to be the future of American Christianity? Are things like "emergent" and "seeker sensitive Christianity" symptoms of a sickness waiting to slay the stumbling Church? There is also a rise in 'Calvinistic' Christianity with the younger generation losing interest in the pop-Christianity of the last few years. What future do you see in this?

For His Glory, Javier

Michael S. Horton: Javier, I'd have to say yes, but let's not let ourselves off the hook either. There's a kind of blind confessionalism that can go through the motions, demanding obedience to dogmas that no longer seem to actually provoke wonder, delight, faith, and praise. When that happens, the next generation says, "Sure, we believe all of that stuff, but we have to find vitality, excitement, and joy somewhere else." If the gospel doesn't penetrate our heart, faith can become reduced to mere assent to correct beliefs rather than trust in Christ who is identified by those beliefs.

The point of my book is to make the case that across the spectrum from orthodox to liberal, there is a crying need to be awakened again by the dramatic story of promise-and-fulfillment that unites the whole Bible, with Christ at its center. This story gives rise to doctrines that clarify the meaning of that story and practices (like baptism and the Lord's Supper) through which God burns our dead-end script that we've written for ourselves for our own "life movie" and re-casts us in his unfolding drama. So doctrine alone won't carry the day. Instead of finding a supporting role for God in our play, God has found a role for us in his. So we need to be inserted into Christ, regularly moved from proclamation to faith to instruction to praise to loving witness and service to our neighbors.

I see that kind of joy among the younger Christians you mention, who are especially attracted to a more Calvinistic orientation. Christianity Today ran a cover-story on this phenomenon recently. It's a very heartening development. I would just encourage these brothers and sisters who have discovered a deeper view of God, their sin, and God's grace in Christ to keep investigating the fuller riches of Reformed Christianity. It's not just about the "five points of Calvinism," but that's not a bad start!

_______________________

Atglen, Pa.: Dear Dr. Horton,

What happened to the church being a change agent? It seems we are being changed by our culture. I have been a Christian for 15 years and I am feeling tired and bored with modern day sermons which have no real challenge. I am longing to once again see reverence and awe for God instead of Him just being our buddy. Thank you, John

Michael S. Horton: Couldn't agree more, John. In Isaiah 6, God appears to the prophet in a vision, enthroned in majesty, and Isaiah-called by God to pronounce his judgment on Israel-now finds himself "undone" in the presence of the holy God. "For I am a man of unclean lips and dwell among a people of unclean lips. For my eyes have seen the Holy One." In the vision, an angel cleanses Isaiah's lips and God says, "Your sins are forgiven." Absolved, the prophet rises to his feet and begs God to let him preach the Good News to his people: "Here I am, Lord, send me!"

The church needs a reality check. We need to be confronted not with charismatic communicators, slick salesmen, frustrated politicians and thespians, and "life coaches," but with the Triune God whose holiness stops us in our tracks and provokes us to cry out for Christ as the only Mediator between God and human beings. It's not by making the Bible culturally relevant, but by simply letting God establish his own relevance that genuine forgiveness and transformation is possible.

_______________________

San Francisco, Calif.: Last week at my Catholic church in northern California, numerous people got up and walked out when the pastor urged the congregation to vote for Proposition 8 during his sermon.

If you think there should be one, where should the line be drawn today between church and state on issues like Prop 8 and others?

Michael S. Horton: There is a big difference between preaching, teaching, and applying God's Word to God's people and enforcing that Word through specific policy prescriptions. As a minister, I can say that's it's a strange and terrifying thing to step into a pulpit and speak in God's name. It's downright dangerous, not because of the people's judgment but because of God's. Am I really saying what he has told me today, right here in this passage today? Or am I full of hot air? Am I respecting the limited authority he has given me by his Word or am I using it as my own bully-pulpit to vent my opinions?

I am obliged by this Word to teach that marriage is a divine ordinance established between one man and one woman, but I do not believe that I have any divine warrant for binding the consciences of God's people to vote for or against a particular policy regarding the state's proper ordering of the common life of my neighbors. I've discussed this proposition with a number of friends and colleagues and even though we hold the same view of marriage as divinely instituted, there are differences over specific public policies.

Our webmaster has informed me that we have posted a lot of extra resources on www.christlesschristianity.org that address a lot of the questions that are being raised today.

_______________________

Dallas, Tex.: Do you think the problem is that it is hard to preach from the Bible when there is no consensus as to which stories are true and which ones are fictional parables?

Michael S. Horton: Good question. Yes, that is a problem. There should be a consensus. The biblical writers themselves were self-conscious of their use of different literary genres. When Jesus spoke in parables, he told them that was what he was doing, and it starts with the characteristic opening, "There once was a man..." or "The kingdom of God is like a mustard seed." Otherwise, the Gospels are historical narrative: reporting the key teachings, acts, and events in the ministry of Jesus of Nazareth. Luke even tells us that he wrote his Gospel (as well as Acts) after numerous personal interviews with eye-witnesses in order to compile a reliable summary for his patron, Theophilus. So it's important to allow the Bible itself to reveal its distinct genres, so that we don't interpret parables as narrative reports or vice versa.

_______________________

Glen Ellyn, Ill.: What criteria ought I consider in finding a church that preaches "Christ-centered" Christianity? I've attended a non-denominational bible church for most of my adult life, and the problems/issues you identify seem pervasive everywhere I look. Where does one go to find the true, historic, Christ-centered gospel preached?

Michael S. Horton: The Bible says that "faith comes by hearing...the Word of Christ." The most important mark of a true church is that it proclaims the gospel-actually proclaims Christ regularly as the Savior of sinners, including Christians, by grace alone, through faith alone. Find a church where the gospel is not assumed or taken for granted, but is always front-and-center. Second, God ratifies his gift, delivering Christ to us through baptism and the Lord's Supper. Third, Christ the Good Shepherd neither harasses nor ignores his sheep, but guides them by faithful ministers who know them and look after them. So look for a church where God is the major actor, in judgment and forgiveness, and the table of his grace is spread in the wilderness to feed you with Christ on your pilgrimage to the even greater feast that awaits us.

_______________________

Easton, Pa.: Do you think Christian evangelicals should expect so many of their political leaders to share the same beliefs as they do, and criticize them if they don't share those beliefs? --Lynn

Michael S. Horton: "Christless Christianity" is often the result of distraction. Even good, important, and worthwhile issues take our eyes off of Christ. We are citizens of two cities: the political kingdoms of this present age that rise and fall as well as the kingdom of Christ that lasts forever. Christ's church is not only made up of "people from every tribe, kindred, tongue, and nation" (Rev 5:9), but consists of Democrats, Republicans, Independents, Greens, Libertarians, and whatever else we might add.

Two Christians sharing the same faith and baptism may hold widely differing views about the common good. On some public policy issues, the Bible says absolutely nothing about it; on others, it's possible to come to the same conclusions about whether something is right or wrong and disagree about how best to apply it in the public square. Remember, government is given authority to enforce its policies with the threat of physical punishment, while the kingdom of Christ reaches the ends of the earth through the non-coercive proclamation of the gospel. Once you blur that line, it's disaster for the church and the state.

There's an interesting account in the Gospels where two of Jesus' more "Type-A" disciples (James and John) accompany Jesus to a string of Samaritan villages to preach the gospel. When they refused to hear it, these disciples (nicknamed "sons of thunder") told Jesus that they would call fire down from heaven to destroy the village upon his order. "Jesus rebuked them sharply and they went to another village." Jesus came to be and do the things that would constitute the gospel. When he returns at the end of this age, it will be Judgment Day. However, this is the day of salvation, as the gospel extends to the ends of the earth. I have examples in the book about how many policy issues upon which conservative and liberal denominations in the US think they have the divine authority to pronounce. It's amazing. According to the statistics, most people raised in the church seem to know very little of the actual content of their faith and even complain that they are not being fed, while Christian leaders and pastors deliver answers to questions that Scripture does not give them the authority to answer in God's name. Evidently, for many, the Bible's tax policy is clearly set forth in Scripture, but matters of Christian doctrine are confusing, obscure, and divisive. We're united by one faith-"the faith once and for all delivered to the saints" (Jude 4)-not by one party.

_______________________

Louisville, Ky.: I was saved in a Church which is led by a Pastor from the Kenneth Hagin Bible School. He is very motivating, uplifted and I would love to say led by the spirit. After I proclaimed Christ as my Lord and Savior who I will serve in his name, I felt I was being led to leave the Church. Something was not settling properly with me. After much prayer I went to various Churches to come to the one I am at now and very happy with the doctrine. Am I wrong to leave?

Michael S. Horton: I'm pretty familiar with the teachings of Kenneth Hagin and the "Word-of-Faith" movement, known more popularly as the "prosperity gospel." Regrettably, especially given its widespread influence (especially through the success of Benny Hinn, Joyce Meyer, and Joel Osteen), this movement contradicts central Christian teachings on a variety of points. I edited and contributed to a book years ago, The Agony of Deceit, that interacted with Hagin and others specifically on these issues, if you're interested. I hope you have found a church that faithfully teaches God's Word and grounds you in the faith!

_______________________

Berea, Ohio: Since there is no solid history upon which to base a factual Jesus, since Jesus is only the faith creation of believers after the fact of a presumed historical character, in short, mythology, why do we persist in spending so much time on all these variants about Jesus?

Michael S. Horton: Even the most skeptical of scholars acknowledge that Christ died on the cross under Roman authority, particularly since this is reported by non-Christian officials and historians at the time. Here is what early Jewish and Roman officials agreed on: (1) Jesus was crucified as a blasphemer under Jewish law and as a trouble-maker under Roman law; (2) Jesus died, confirmed by the strict procedures of Roman crucifixion; (3) he was placed in a tomb with Roman and Jewish guards posted (to guard against theft of his body by followers); (4) he was not in the tomb after three days and (5) a widespread commotion broke out in Jerusalem over his whereabouts. These can be pieced together by first-century statements from Romans rulers and historians such as Pliny the Younger, Trajan, and Tacitus and from rabbinical writings as well as the Jewish historian Josephus. From there, theories varied. Jewish leaders (Pharisees) argued that the body had somehow been stolen in spite of the double-regiment of Sanhedrin police and Roman soldiers. Romans, who saw the whole matter as a troublesome intra-Jewish affair, were so provoked by the empty tomb that they began rounding up anyone and everyone who claimed to have known Jesus. Disappearing bodies did not bode well for the deterrent force of Roman crucifixion.

Of course, the early followers of Jesus believed that Jesus had been raised and had appeared to them for many days, explaining how his death and resurrection were promised throughout the Old Testament, and then ascended to the right hand of the Father in glory where he will remain until he returns to judge the living and the dead. The disciples, who, by their own accounts, had shown themselves to be cowards after Jesus' arrest, were now willing martyrs for their testimony to the risen Christ and this Good News spread rapidly, just as Jesus promised, "from Jerusalem to Judea to Samaria to the uttermost parts of the earth."

As the apostles were brought before Roman authorities, they said nothing about how Jesus had helped them put their marriages back together or how they found it helpful and useful in daily living. Rather, they testified to datable events, which they assumed to have been well-known to their judges. If it had only promised good advice, spiritual and moral therapy, or pragmatic usefulness, Rome would have had no trouble adding another cult to the soup of imperial religion. However, the claim was that Jesus alone is Lord of the cosmos and Savior of the world (both titles that Caesar claimed for himself).

_______________________

Cleveland Tenn.: This is not a question it is a commendation. Thank you for articulating the feeling that has gripped me for sometime now. Jesus is not Savior - He is a soft drink. We act as if "Things were going bad but now I'm choosing Christ" He is a bumper sticker not the stumbling block. He is a slogan not Salvation. We have a program to change the world. We neglected to include the Word that was made flesh. So this is my request can we "agree together" and ask the Father in the name of Jesus to forgive our apostasy?

Michael S. Horton: Thanks for the encouragement. You're right: there's a big difference between using Christ's name for branding a movement and calling on that name for salvation.

_______________________

Dallas, Ga.: Do you feel that if Obama gets the presidency that he will be the beginning of the antichrist

Michael S. Horton: I mean no offence, but this is the sort of teaching that many people are getting in extremely conservative churches where Christ is as evidently left out of the picture as in any rant by Jeremiah Wright. Judging by the enormous popularity of the Left Behind best-sellers, many Christians today are more fascinated by the Antichrist than by Christ. How many books on Christ's person and work top the New York Times Best-Seller List for months?

According to First John, "many antichrists have gone out into the world" even during the time of the apostles, and John identifies them as those who distort the gospel concerning Christ. Even if one holds that there is still a future Antichrist figure who will consummate this line of false prophets, the New Testament teaches that he will take his throne in the temple-that is, in the communion of saints (the church). He will be a religious figure who uses the secular power of the state to persecute the saints.

If we're keeping our eyes peeled for the Antichrist, we should keep our eyes fixed on Christ. If we really know who he is and what he has done in history for our redemption and what he will do when he returns, then we'll know his impostors when we see them. If we are witnessing something like "Christless Christianity" across the religious spectrum today, this is what the Bible calls "the spirit of antichrist." And if that's true, then whatever one's politics, don't look for the Antichrist in Washington, but in false religion. For more on this subject, I highly recommend The Man of Sin: Uncovering the Truth About the Antichrist by Kim Riddlebarger

_______________________

Summerfield: Should Christians pray to Jesus since Jesus himself revealed he was indeed God? RG

Michael S. Horton: This is a good question and it goes to the heart of what Christians mean by worshiping God as the Trinity: one in essence and three in person. All good gifts come from the Father, in the Son, and through the Spirit. The Son is always the mediator between God and creatures. So while Jesus Christ is fully God, and we place our faith in him, he directs us to pray to the Father through his mediation (as in the Lord's Prayer).

_______________________

Moncton, Neb.: Greetings;

Haven't we heard enough of the "theology of the cross" and the Christian glorification of suffering? Did Christ himself not invite us to the deepest kind of personal transformation and healing - which he called the new birth?

Michael S. Horton: It depends on what you've been hearing as the "theology of the cross." If it's a glorification of suffering as an end in itself, then it is exactly the "downer" that Nietzsche believed Christianity to be. However, the Bible tells a very particular story; it's not a generic philosophy of suffering and the cross, but the specific story of Christ's willingness, "because of the joy set before him," to endure the trial of obedience, undoing Adam's treason, fulfilling all righteousness, and bearing our sins. We are recipients of these benefits. Happily, Jesus did not give in to Satan's temptation to grasp power and glory without having to go to the cross. The apostles spoke of sharing in Christ's sufferings in the sense that they were being persecuted for their testimony to what he had accomplished, not because they thought they too were somehow atoning for sin by it.

Part of our fallen condition is that we want power and glory now, on our terms. We think that we're good, but we could be better with the right instructions and motivation. In this way of thinking, even the new birth can become a new therapy for self-transformation. A famous evangelist wrote a book years ago titled, How to Be Born Again. Although the Gospel of John (chapters 1 and 3) speaks of this new birth as something that God unilaterally gives, in our pragmatic "how-to" culture, even this amazing act of God's grace can be turned into something that we bring about by following the right procedures, steps and techniques. We not only need healing; we need absolution from our guilt. And we are not only ill, but are spiritually dead (Eph 2:1-4). We do not raise ourselves to new life in Christ, but are raised by God's grace (vv 5-10).

Personal transformation is the effect of the gospel, not the gospel itself. The Good News is about what God has done in Jesus Christ for us, not about what happens inside of us or through us in the world. Only when we recognize that crucial point does the gospel then truly transform us within and make us active agents of God's love for and service to our neighbors.

_______________________

Pakistan: What do you say about Islam?

Michael S. Horton: Islam means "submission." Allah is one person and he does not enter into relationships with human beings, much less become human in order to save those whom he loves who stand under his judgment. Each person must submit to Allah, carefully fulfilling his law, and hope to merit heaven. By contrast, the source of Christianity is Good News. There is one God in three persons, so relationship is at the heart of God's own eternal existence. God the Son became flesh in history, fulfilled the law in our place, bore our sentence in his death, and rose again for our justification. His righteousness is imputed (or credited) to us, even though we are inherently sinful and undeserving of it, as a free gift that we receive through faith in him. Then and there, we are no longer condemned but declared righteous, are adopted as co-heirs with Christ, bearing the fruit of righteousness as branches of his life-giving vine, and will be bodily raised when Christ returns. We therefore do not fear the Last Judgment, since we have already heard the verdict: "There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus" (Romans 8:1).

_______________________

Resita, Romania: By the grace of God I serve as pastor in Resita First Baptist Church, Romania. I really want to get your book. Please, let me know how I can get a copy. Many thanks and I am so encouraged to see your boldness to proclaim the Gospel Daniel. Daniel Barnut, daniel@resitabaptista.ro

Michael S. Horton: The Bookstore at Westminster Seminary California is capable of accepting International orders using credit cards, of course the shipping will be more, but we can ship it as economically as possible. You can email your request to bookstore@wscal.edu

_______________________

Castro Valley, Calif.: What must I do to be saved?

Michael S. Horton: The recurring answer in the New Testament is, "Believe on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved." It's calling on Christ as your rescuer from your guilt and death-sentence.

_______________________

NDOLA, ZAMBIA: Is it possible to have a broad, insightful understanding about Christianity if one is divorced from the universality of the truth about the phenomena of Christless Christianity? Additionally, what is the validity of trying to comprehend how one can strive to broaden ones understanding of achieving the purpose of living happily in an atmosphere devoid of the presence of Jesus Christ?

Michael S. Horton: There's nothing wrong with talking about discovering our purpose for life or wanting to find happiness. The problem is that I have failed miserably at fulfilling my purpose (as God defines it, in relation to him) and I settle for trivial happiness instead of God's feast. So the assumption in your comment is exactly right: only in Christ are God's purposes for me fulfilled. As a result, God is glorified and I am finally able to realize my chief end, which is to glorify God and enjoy him forever.

_______________________

Abilene Tex.: I have grown to appreciate and experience the Jewish-ness of the gospel. My family celebrates the biblical feasts and Shabbat, and we understand the need for sacrifice and the holiness of our God. This has happened over time, reading the Bible through from Genesis to Revelation and meeting Jewish believers in Jesus. What place does the Jewish-ness of the gospel have in returning Jesus to the central foundation of the church?

Michael S. Horton: Liberal theology consistently tried to eliminate the "Jewish elements" of the Christian faith and was one of the reasons why it was so dedicated to getting rid of the historical Jesus, who after all, was Jewish. While I often try to relate the New Testament teaching to its Jewish, covenantal context, it's also important to realize that the Bible moves from promise to fulfillment. Along with the Temple and the sacrifices, the feasts have been fulfilled in Christ. As the Book of Hebrews especially emphasizes, there is no longer an earthly temple, sacrifices, or feasts, because Christ is their perfect fulfillment. Once the reality has arrived, we don't go back to the types and shadows. Jesus never transcends his Jewishness, but he does transcend the old covenant-by completing the work that it foreshadowed.

_______________________

Houston, Tex.: Wouldn't you say that is at least intriguing that the more educated people are the less they find solace in religion? It's no wonder we have Christless Christians, the message is not resounding any longer, most of people keep saying they are Christian based on their upbringing, but stop practicing because of an enormous amount of information being exchanged which was not available only 50 years ago. Nowadays how can we be concerned with hell if we see hell just across the Atlantic in parts of Africa, in natural disasters and so on, all live via satellite. It seems religion just compounds the problem with every group feeling entitled; radical Islamists, Arabs against Jews, Christians trying to "save" people in other countries with the goal of converting them to their religion in order to save themselves. Wouldn't you say that if we want to bring good moral Christian values back we should stop judging and accusing people and instead walk the walk? The world is already too divided. The country is already too divided, lets go back to basics - good actions, embrace differences and look forward and not look into how to destroy the competition or the people we don't agree with.

Michael S. Horton: There's a lot here.

First, you seem to assume that education and unbelief go hand-in-hand. In one sense, you're right: "Christless Christianity" is mindless religion, going through the motions or reveling in spiritual hype without any real content. Christianity is not based on a feeling or an experience, good ideas or advice. It is founded on historical events that constitute a gospel-a report of how God has redeemed us. So it has to be constantly taught to each new generation, and it not only survives but thrives when its own members are encouraged to ask questions about what they believe and why they believe it. Only then do we truly own it. But secularism has its own form of mindless indoctrination as well. Nobody can say that the well-instructed and highly committed Christians who founded America's Ivy League colleges (first of all as seminaries for pastors) were uneducated. A college graduate in those days was better-educated than many of us today with PhD's. There are many leading scientists, philosophers, and other intellectuals today who regard their Christian faith as essential to their passion for knowledge more generally.

Second, the horrors that we see all around us are the symptoms of a deeper problem and this problem can't be deflected to "others." You and I-all of us-are the problem. We are born into this world in a spiritual condition of being turned in on ourselves, instead of looking up to God in faith and out to our neighbor in love. "Crises" like torture, genocide, war, and oppression are just another necessary stage in the survival of the fittest, unless they are identified first and foremost as the effects of sin. Crises and problems don't necessarily have anything to do with our relation to God, but sin does. What makes our acts of unkindness and aggression toward others most heinous, even at the level of our personal acts of negligence and selfishness every day, is that they are an offence against the God who created us in his image. It is that guilt of sin that has swept death and hell in its wake. Only God can save us, yet he is our Judge. The Good News is that the Judge is our Redeemer. Whatever symptoms of death and hell we see in the news each day, they pale in comparison to the universal trial in which we will appear before God to give an account not only of what others, but of what we ourselves, did and did not do. On that day, the only hope is to be found in Christ rather than in ourselves.

Third, you're exactly right that the world-and our nation-is often divided by religious strife. God has given the secular rulers a legitimately coercive power to enforce the law of the land. One's religious views are not incidental to one's outlook on life and how it should be organized. Atheists and fundamentalists alike bring their basic convictions and worldviews to their discussions of public policy. However, Christians are forbidden by the New Testament from using the state's coercive power to promote its claims. The gospel claims its citizens by preaching, baptism, and Eucharist, not by propositions and ballots that have secular courts and police to back them up.

Let me put it bluntly: Pastors who clearly proclaim God's Word in concrete ways will always clash with the beliefs of others. However, when they invoke God's authority to bind the consciences of God's people to laws and policies that he never decreed, expecting the secular powers to support those positions with force, they are taking God's name in vain.

_______________________

San Francisco, Calif.: Much of what I learned in my evangelical church upbringing came as a result of what our pastors had been taught at seminary. Upon graduation they hit the deck running and seemingly never checked to see if they had left Christ behind. As a seminary professor, what do you do to keep Christ at the center of all you teach and do so that your graduates know that it's Christ they take to their churches and not themselves?

Michael S. Horton: As I see it (and this is confirmed by colleagues in other seminaries), there has been a major shift in theological education from a core training in the original languages of the Bible, Old and New Testament studies, theology, church history, and pastoral theology to "how-to" electives: youth ministry, sports ministry, church growth, leadership principles, effective church management, psychology, and how to incorporate movie clips and pop music in worship. Then we wonder why pastors have so little to say, but are so savvy in the trends of pop-culture.

_______________________

San Diego, Calif.: I'm trying to understand the division between the two kingdoms. Does the two kingdoms principle mean that the institutional church is devoted exclusively to worship, Word, sacrament, and missions? If not, should a church offer food and shelter to the homeless, run rehab facilities, send money to disaster relief or AIDs relief organizations, offer psychological counseling, provide marriage enrichment seminars, host Boy Scout meetings, provide "Biblical" financial planning, etc.? Or should any or all of these be left as activities for individual Christians to perform with community organizations outside the church campus? What is the criteria for deciding?

Michael S. Horton: There are legitimate differences among Christians on these important questions. My own view is that we have to distinguish between the church as an institution, where Christ's body is gathered together for a specific purpose, and the church as the people of God scattered throughout the world in their various secular callings throughout the week. Christ instituted the office of deacons to oversee the distribution of funds and services for those in physical need, so that no believer is left destitute. However, Christians live alongside non-Christian neighbors, co-workers, volunteers, parents, and even family members. When we expect the institutional church to provide its own versions of the Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts, AIDS relief organizations, the Red Cross, the Peace Corps, Non-Government Agencies, and international corporations, three problems result: (1) the church is distracted from its divinely-ordained commission; (2) church members are forced to volunteer for (or at least give to) particular causes, and (3) pastors assume divine authority and responsibility for roles that they have not been trained for or called to.

Here's what I recommend in the book: Let the church be the church again. Let pastors prepare a feast each week for Christ's flock, bringing maturity in Christ to the whole church-every generation and niche demographic, so that they have the mind of Christ as they go out into their callings as witnesses and simply as good citizens, neighbors, and co-workers. In an average church, there are members who know more about how to fix cars, homes, economic systems and to address crises in health, public welfare, and natural disasters than their pastors. Let them serve alongside their non-Christian neighbors as doctors and nurses, parents and lawyers, truck drivers and soccer moms. And "let [their] light so shine before others," as Jesus said, "that they may glorify [their] Father in heaven."

_______________________

Ithaca, N.Y.: Dr. Horton,

This is very interesting. I am a grad student at Cornell and what I am finding is that there are basically two camps within modern Christianity: (1) those who are more about an experience/inspiration/purpose and (2) those who are more about truth/doctrine. It appears that your thesis is that what I constituted as the first group is basically what amounts to what you call Christless Christianity. How does the second camp become appealing to the first? What is your remedy?Finally, how do you answer the very large intellectual challenges faced with your version of Christianity that requires doctrinal and historical consistency in the face of seeming inconsistencies (e.g., contradictions within the scripture, contradictions with history, seemingly outdated cultural norms, etc.)

Thanks!

Michael S. Horton: I have had similar impressions from my studies at Oxford and Yale. In some cases, I met terrific Christians who remain examples to me of thinking as deeply about their faith as they do about their academic interests. However, the general tendency (in my experience at least) seems to be that you had really bright people going to class ready to engage their minds and then shut it off when they came to the campus ministry event. There are terrific exceptions to this, in terms of conferences on Christianity and science, philosophy, the arts, and so forth. But what I found consistently missing was rigorous conversation about Christian doctrine (theology). Just when you begin to get close to a theological subject, I often found among very active Christians a desire to change the subject./p>

_______________________

Wisbech, UK: Us Christians in the "Old World" (ie Europe) are often criticized by Americans for having supposedly abandoned our faith. Yet I suspect that for those of us who are still believers, our understanding of Christ is closer to the Christ-centered faith your write of, than the personal transformational gospel that seems so popular in the US (and which I can never escape whenever I come to visit). Is that a reasonable assumption, or do we have our own problems?

Michael S. Horton: A number of years ago, Newsweek religion writer Kenneth Woodward put it nicely-something like this: "Mainline Protestantism in America is falling apart because it is abandoning its rich heritage; evangelicalism is succeeding in this environment precisely because it never had it." Now, that is a little extreme, but only a little. Sociologists have pointed out that when Europeans go "secular," they become atheists, but Americans secularize their faith by blending an enthusiastic personal faith with the pragmatism and narcissism of our popular culture. It may be a deeply personal, exciting, and emotional spirituality, but it need not bear any direct connection with historic Christianity.

_______________________

Waynesboro, Va.: I attend a PCA church that teaches reformed theology. I grew up in the LCMS (and had Dr. Rosenbladt for a few classes at Christ College, Irvine). I haven't read your book, but assume you make a 'Law-Gospel' connection at some point.

Do most of the other 'mainline' denominations have a similar view of the Bible in their respective core theologies, even if it has been ignored or left behind for more 'progressive' themes? Or is the Reformed interpretation singular in its Law/Gospel framework and insistence on the constant need for a believer to hear the preaching of the whole Gospel?

It seems the pill might be a little easier to swallow if the cure is not 'become Reformed', but instead 'become Christ-centered, and returned to the doctrinally sound roots of your denomination'.

Joel Maas

Michael S. Horton: Good question, Joel. The divisions of Protestants themselves into Reformed and Lutheran camps is itself lamentable. However, the gazillions of sects and denominations in American Protestantism alone today is bewildering. Abandoning creeds and confessions (mainly through revivalistic evangelicalism in the 19th century) hardly led to greater unity. Besides the ecumenical creeds of the first few centuries, the Lutheran Book of Concord, the Thirty-Nine Articles of the Anglican tradition, the Belgic and Westminster Confessions (Reformed/Presbyterian), the Savoy Declaration (Congregationalist), and the London/Philadelphia Baptist Confession are far more united on the central articles of the faith than, for example, someone like I would be with someone like Robert Schuller-even though we have both pledged to teach and defend the same confession. Reformed as well as Lutheran traditions are united on the crucial difference between law and gospel. It was the heart of the Reformation debate with Rome. So I agree that the goal for all of us is to become more Christ-centered. And that focus is something that we all need to recover, even in so-called Reformed churches.

_______________________

Pleasanton, Tex.: How much of an impact do you think the emergent church movement will have on the church in the future and will the movement be a threat to the preaching of penal substitutionary atonement ? Thanks

Michael S. Horton: You start with a generation that just goes through the motions, jealousy guarding its confession and practices, but in a kind of knee-jerk conservatism that does not encourage reflection and questioning. Then the next generation, not surprisingly, finds it all pretty boring. They still sign off officially on the doctrine, but their real obsession is with being relevant, exciting, and popular. At this stage, the gospel is assumed-taken for granted-but not really front-and-center. Finally, a generation arises that has never been taught what Christians believe and why they believe it. There may be a deep emotional attachment to Jesus but a superficial understanding of who he is, how he fits in the big picture, and what he came to do. I wonder if the emergent church is not a lot like that last generation I mention. I have had some conversations with Brian McLaren, Doug Padgitt, Tony Campolo, and other leaders of this movement, and I share their concern to break out of a barren conservatism, but my concern is that they do not really have a fair assessment of the faith and practice that they are abandoning. They tend to throw the baby out with the bath-water. (And the belief that Christ died as a substitute for sinners, bearing their judgment, is not a negotiable theory; it's the heart of the gospel.) If the megachurch movement tended to be "me-centered," the emergent church is "neighbor-centered," but I am hoping that we will become God-centered. Then we and our neighbors will have their proper place in the grand scheme of our approach to life. The "emergent church" movement is broad, so generalizations are dangerous, but many of its key spokespersons have advocated views and emphases that are virtually indistinguishable from older Protestant liberalism. In many ways, I think that this movement is "most-modern" more than truly "post-modern."

_______________________

Seattle Wash.: Is there any active relationship between your Christless Christianity and the Prosperity/Glorification Theology that has only seemed to become more popular over the past few decades in the church?

Michael S. Horton: Definitely. There's a long history of what is called New Thought in American spirituality and it influenced writers from Norman Vincent Peale to Robert Schuller, as well as "prosperity evangelists" in Neo-Pentecostal circles (Kenneth Copeland, Benny Hinn, and Joel Osteen). In the book I refer to several major emphases in Osteen (especially his book, Become a Better You) that come from this stream of health-and-wealth teaching.

_______________________

Gaithersburg, Md.: The trend in worship five years ago was small groups. Now I find it really odd that there are groups that advocate virtual worship. What kind of impact do you think this trend will have on worship?

Michael S. Horton: That's my last chapter in the book. If people believe that you go to church primarily to do something, then you expect the sermon to give you a "to-do" list, the sacraments (if they're present at all, at least in a normal service) are your means of commitment rather than God's means of grace, and your maturity is measured by how active you are in various church ministries, it's no wonder that they either get burned out or end up concluding that they can get their "marching orders" and "spiritual resources" in support groups or find self-help on-line.

However, if people believe that the church is not just a resource center for their gifts but the delivery center for God's gifts, then it's obvious that they need to be at the place where God has promised to give them to us. It's the difference between the church as a fast-food chain for individual consumers and the church as a feasting communion of saints.

_______________________

St. Catharine's, Ontario, Canada: How does one go about bringing the good news to others or explaining that their views of Christianity are wrong without "preaching"? In other words, how do you actually get people to listen to what you have to say?

Michael S. Horton: It is really interesting that "preaching" today basically has the connotation of demands and scolding for not having fulfilled them. It basically means "law," and a bad version of it. The best way to bring the Good News to others without sounding like we're "preaching" in the sense you intend is to preach the gospel as the gospel and not as more law.

_______________________

Wilton, N.H.: I haven't bought the book yet- but did read the first chapter. Based on that, it appears that this book is all about pointing out the problems and if we are looking for the solution we have to wait for the sequel. I understand your message and am glad to see it brought to light. However, why couldn't the problem and solution be presented together.

Michael S. Horton: Great question-and concern. As William Willimon says in the foreword, "Christless Christianity" isn't just a critique but points a way forward. For every criticism I offer alternatives. But the statistics and examples I cite are indeed difficult and disappointing, especially in an evangelical world that doesn't take self-criticism very well. The sequel will focus entirely on what we mean by "Good News."

_______________________

washingtonpost.com: Unfortunately we have run out of time for today. Thank you all for joining us.

Michael S. Horton: Thanks for the opportunity to be here. This has been terrific. We have had an overwhelming amount of questions that we will still address and post to the Viewpoint page later. We address many of these types of questions on a regular basis on the White Horse Inn (www.whitehorseinn.org) and in Modern Reformation magazine (www.modernreformation.org). It was a pleasure.

_______________________

washingtonpost.com: Due to an overwhelming response, Dr. Michael S. Horton requested the following answers to still be posted.

Overland Park, Kan.: Dr. Horton, my question has to do with the point in time in which you feel Christ was taken out of the faith. Do you feel there is any pathway backwards that would tell us how this has happened?

Michael S. Horton: Christians are still sinners, and our default setting is always to assume that we are pretty decent people who need direction (law) but not redemption (gospel). One generation loses its wonder at God's amazing grace. It just becomes words on a page, doctrines to which we yield our assent. The next generation, bored, assumes the gospel but focuses on more ostensibly interesting, exciting, and relevant things. Of course, I needed the gospel to "get saved," but now I'm a disciple and I want to get on with deeds, not creeds. Then the next generation doesn't even assume the gospel; it doesn't know it. That's where we are headed right now, I'm arguing in this book.

Whether we're talking about our own individual lives as believers or the church more generally, "Christless Christianity" is never a remote threat. Each generation must be routinely bathed in the gospel; each of us must be perpetually pulled out of the narrow horizon of our own spiritual pride, despair, and "spin." We always need to hear that strange new Word that brings with it a strange new world of God and his grace into this fading age.

____________________

Escondido, California: Is "Christless Christianity" a historic problem in the Church? If so, is there anything particular about the alternative American "gospel" that distinguishes it from the natural heresies of Pelagianism, Gnosticism, and Deism seen through sacred history?

Michael S. Horton: For those who might not be familiar with these terms, here's a quick summary.

Pelagianism: The views associated with Pelagius (b. 354) were condemned by several church councils and popes for teaching that human beings are capable of attaining salvation by their own free will and good works apart from God's grace. Augustine was Pelagius' arch-opponent.

Gnosticism: Arising in the second century, the various sects of Gnosticism were united in their belief that creation (especially matter) was the work of an evil deity, while the Christ redeems us from time and space (including our bodies) to reunite our spirits with the one true spirit of the cosmos. Parasitical on the biblical narrative, Gnosticism simply reversed it: the serpent in the garden was the good guy, encouraging enlightenment and freedom from the evil creator; the "good god" only appeared to become human, but his body was only an illusion; the gospel is salvation from matter, not the resurrection of the body and a new creation. So salvation is found by inner enlightenment. Gnosticism tries to initiate its adherents into a deeper spiritual knowledge (gnosis) than can be found in the official teachings of the church. The "inner light" is sharply contrasted with external things apprehended by the physical senses (the visible church, Scripture, preaching, sacraments, and offices).

Deism: Usually associated with the Enlightenment, deism believes that a deity created the world along with its laws, but doesn't intervene in nature and history. Obviously, miracles (especially the incarnation, atonement, and resurrection of Christ) are rejected. We shouldn't accept in religion anything that depends on an external revelation or miraculous intervention, beyond our own reason, experience, and natural processes. While there are huge differences, in a way deism brings together threads of Pelagianism (religion as universal morality) and Gnosticism (religion as universal spiritual consciousness, autonomously grounded in the self).

While I don't go into great detail, I point out in the book—again with documentation—that these heresies are not only still around (they've always been around) but that they increasingly characterize spirituality and religion across the board in our culture. In fact, the late Harold Bloom (Yale literary critic) argued (and as a self-professed Gnostic celebrated the fact) that Gnosticism is the American Religion. For all of their differences, Ralph Waldo Emerson, Joel Osteen, and Oprah help to make Bloom's case. But, as he points out, this covers the whole spectrum from conservative to liberal, especially through the heritage of American revivalism.

The common factor in all of these heresies is that the individual self is sovereign. You're saved by looking within, where you discover that your truest self is actually divine, and by realizing your own moral potential. Especially Pelagianism and Gnosticism have converged to create the "perfect storm" for our current crisis.

_______________________

Dallas, TX: I ordered the book and DVD early, and as a pastor swimming against the tide of consumerist Christianity, found it very refreshing.

One question concerning the "receiving" part of coming to church (which I so enjoy hearing): Where does serving in the church and giving in the church fit into this model? In a small church like ours, our most dedicated servants (esp. SS teachers) are so stretched that it feels like work to come to church sometimes, and I want the service to be more broadly shared, so that we can all receive more. How can I do that, while holding on to the "receiving philosophy"? BTW: We only have Sunday School and worship on Sunday and some small groups between Sundays--not a lot going on.

Michael S. Horton: Thanks for the encouragement! As you know very well, Sunday (hopefully!) is the busiest day of the week for a pastor. That's as it should be. God is serving his people through pastor-teachers, elders, and deacons. That's true also of Sunday school teachers, of course. Those of us who minister God's Word and sacraments in the official assembly of God's people are waiters at Christ's feast. If we've fulfilled our calling, the people can simply take their seat at the table and be served. So Christ knew what he was doing when he created these ministering offices. Ministers (and Sunday school teachers) are receivers at the feast as well, but they're also serving it up.

Of course, in Romans 12 and 1 Corinthians 12, Paul also speaks of gifts in the body other than the official ministry of Word and sacrament and the offices of elders and deacons. But in Ephesians 4, he focuses on the gifts of pastors and teachers, from whose ministry the whole body is built up into Christ, maturing in sound doctrine. When everyone is expected to be a minister and use his or her gifts in the public assembly, it's all action and no one is actually being served. God calls us to serve his people so that they can serve each other and their neighbors throughout the week.

If that's true, then you're wise in not having a lot of "ministries." Not only is the proliferation of "ministries" drawing us away from the main meal; it's keeping the sheep from being fed so that they have something to say and to give out in the world in their secular callings.

_______________________

Baden, PA: I hear from Christians and unbelievers alike the answer to the question, "What is the gospel?", the answer is "to love", as a verb. If only we just love, that is our true salvific proof. I always wonder, what is love, how much is enough, and isn't this the intent of the whole law, to love?

Michael S. Horton: Yes, Jesus said that love (toward God and our neighbor) is the summary of the law. Saving faith produces the fruit of love and good works. As John especially emphasizes in his epistles, love is indeed the chief characteristic of genuine faith. However, we are not saved by our love, but by God's love for us in Christ. If the gospel is a command for me to do something—especially the imperative to love, then it's the worst possible news. It's the law that shows me that I haven't loved God or my neighbor and that there's no hope for me to ever fulfill its demands; it's the gospel that tells me the good news that God justifies (declares righteous) everyone who believes in Christ (See Paul's argument in Romans 3 and 4). To say that the gospel is "Love more!" is the most blatant form of confusing law and gospel. In that very letter where John calls us to love each other, he never confuses this command with the gospel. In fact, he says, "This is love: not that we love God, but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins" (1 Jn 4:10)

_______________________

Hermosillo, Sonora, Mexico: Do you feel "Christless" teaching has had a ripple effect into secular culture?

Jonathan SDG!

Michael S. Horton: Jonathan, I do. In fact, I refer in the book to one historian who observed that the star system wasn't born in Hollywood, but on the sawdust trail of American revivalism. Another writer, Garry Wills, put it succinctly: "The do-it-yourself religion required a make-it-yourself ministry." Evangelical revivalism not only thrived in a culture of pragmatism, individualism, the obsession with therapeutic well-being, consumerism, marketing, and entertainment, but helped to create it.

_______________________

Temple Hills, MD: What about the Joel Osteen's of the world who say their job is just to encourage people and they can go elsewhere for all that theology?

Michael S. Horton: The New Testament calls ministers "ambassadors." Ambassadors don't create policy; they communicate it. As Paul said, "We do not preach ourselves, but Christ, and ourselves as your servants for Jesus' sake" (2 Cor 4:5). We just don't get to write our job description.

_____________________

Escondido, California: Despite the differences among Christians today, it seems we are living in a time when everyone wants to automatically believe anything anyone has to say about Christ or God. How do I actually convince my neighbor or friend or pastor that I am actually talking about something (possibly someone) totally different than what they think? When I begin to mention the gospel or Christ, it's always, "yeah, yeah, yeah...of course it's about Jesus," and then they go right back to talking or preaching about what's really crucial to them - morality or transformation.

Thanks in advance, Joel

Michael S. Horton: Joel, it all goes back to the question of authority. Do we trust that which happens inside of us or that which is announced to us from heaven through ambassadors (prophets and apostles)? Nobody should pay me any attention if I blow hot air about how I feel the economy is doing and where it's headed. We listen to people who appeal to the facts of the situation. How much more should that be the case when Jesus confirmed his authority by his resurrection and conferred his authority on the apostles to speak in his name? It just doesn't matter what we think, feel, or would like to believe when the actual state of affairs has been revealed to us by God.

_____________________

San Antonio, TX: What can my family do to help bring Christ back into the church?

Michael S. Horton: This may be the most important question. The biblical faith is a covenantal religion. That is, God promises to be our God and the God of our children after us. Right now, in the name of reaching the lost we're actually losing the reached. In the book I include staggering statistics revealing the degree of biblical and doctrinal illiteracy in conservative, supposedly "Bible-believing" churches.

One of the main reasons that the Reformation (this is Reformation Day, after all!) had such a multi-generational effect (down to the present day) is that they restored the ancient Christian practice of daily catechism (instruction). For example, our churches use the Heidelberg Catechism. For every Sunday (Lord's Day), there is a cluster of questions and answers that parents were to teach and then there would be a catechism sermon (one of two or even three sermons!) on Sunday. Remember, these catechisms were written for children in an age that was largely illiterate. Historians point out that the Reformation, in fact, played a major role in creating literacy.

If we are going to have a new Reformation, we have to recover basic instruction. Youth groups often become detached from the rest of the church, as a kind of perpetual summer camp. It's no wonder that when we become adults, we want church to be "fun" and "exciting," without a lot of heavy teaching. But today, younger Christians are crying out for deeper teaching and are flocking in growing numbers to churches and youth groups where it happens.

_____________________

San Diego, California: One of the most frustrating things to me is seeing the popular media (news and TV stations and reporters, along with people like Bill Maher and his new film "Religulous") so often interview only those people that are on these extreme ends of things (either very liberal, or very charismatic).

How can we better broadcast a much more biblical and accurate representation of the Gospel and Christianity, rather than all of this popular stuff that is anything but Christianity, and how does this fact contribute to the shallowness of American Religion as Dr. Horton critiques in this book?

How can we get non-Christians to understand that the stuff that they usually see isn't Christianity, and isn't what many of us follow, so please don't categorize us with them?

The culture is right to reject much of what is perceived to be "Christianity" today, because of its ridiculousness, but how do we turn that around and change perceptions?

I just don't see it as right when this (this interview with Dr. Horton) is considered the minority, and is so rare, when in fact it's far more historically and biblically accurate than the junk that's filling the airwaves of today.

Wes

Michael S. Horton: Wes, it's a good thing that it's Christ's church, not ours! He promised to keep building it and that the gates of hell would not prevail against it. But he never promised that it would be popular or capture the headlines. I share your concern that so many non-Christians today just assume that Christianity is mindless. Part of the problem is that mindless distortions of Christianity are most successful in gaining massive audiences. So we need to keep plugging away, "always being ready to give a reason for the hope that we have" (1 Pet 3:15).

_____________________

Chicago area Illinois - Bensenville: It is becoming increasingly apparent that the Reformational type of Christianity that you espouse is on a collision course with much of mainstream evangelicalism (The Church Growth movement of which Willow Creek in the Chicago area and Rick Warren's Purpose-Driven Life type Churches are a part of, the emerging movement and the Word/Faith movements of which Joel Osteen could be considered a part of). They emphasize deeds not creeds and you Reformational types emphasize creeds not deeds. Do you think it is possible that these differing movements in the Church can be reconciled? If your answer is yes how would you go about doing this? Doesn't the witness of the Church get confused and look odd when those who do not share the beliefs of Christians look upon those who do believe in Christianity? This is a huge problem isn't it?

Michael S. Horton: Great question. Reformation Christianity doesn't emphasize "creeds not deeds." Rather, it emphasizes that we are saved by grace alone, through faith in Christ alone, and that this faith produces the fruit of good works. There is no fruit without the root. So any movement that makes the gospel about us and our activity, instead of Christ and his saving work for us, is false, not just a different emphasis. It needs to be corrected. All of us as Christians need to put the horse back in front of the cart, "looking to Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him, endured the cross and its shame, having taken his seat at the right hand of the throne of God" (Heb 12:2).

_____________________

Pittsburgh, PA: Michael - much of what we hear from the conservative American church is that "personal transformation" and improved behavior is the hallmark of the Christian church. What would you say to such an emphasis, and what would be the good news from your understanding of the gospel, for homosexuals and other people who can't seem to change their behavior?

Michael S. Horton: Another great question. The gospel not only promises freedom from the guilt and condemnation but also from the tyranny and bondage of our sin. However, just look at the struggle that the Apostle Paul recognized in his own life (Romans 7): often he finds that the very things he wants to do, he fails to do and the very things he doesn't want to do he keeps on doing. "O wretched man that I am. Who will deliver me from this body of death?" See, he's looking inside and finds a dungeon of death. But then he immediately raises his eyes to Christ and gets his answer: "I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!"

The gospel is not our personal transformation. The gospel is that Jesus fulfilled the law and bore its judgment in our place and rose again for us. This Good News transforms us, precisely because its content is not our transformation. This means that I am saved even though I continue to sin and struggle with doubts and disobedience. Apart from being united to Christ, we do not struggle with sin. The very fact that we do struggle against it is evidence that we are part of his new creation.

If the gospel is turned into our personal transformation (with "before" and "after" testimonies that often over-emphasize how different we are since being born again), we will easily forget that the gospel is not about what happens in us, but about what happened for us, in Christ, two thousand years ago. Homosexuality is never singled out in Scripture as an unpardonable sin; in fact, it's often listed alongside greed, envy, back-biting, and gossip (which are evident enough in ordinary church life). It too can be forgiven, even when it is committed by Christians who find that their struggle against it is incomplete in this life. Only when the gospel is this big and its grace is this complete are we given the faith to continue the battle against all of our sins.