Many of us from "across the pond" believe he should have been the next Archbishop of Canterbury following in the footsteps of George Carey, but it was not to be. A scurrilous secular press did him in and Dr. Rowan Williams, an Affirming Catholic, took the helm. His reign was tumultuous and nearly ruinous for the Anglican Communion. While his successor Justin Welby is an evangelical, he is a theological lightweight compared to Bishop Nazir-Ali.

I put a number of questions to Bishop Michael.

VOL: Since you resigned your position as Bishop of Rochester, you have become England’s most outspoken bishop and critic in England’s Culture Wars. Was that your intention when you stepped down? Did you feel you could not speak openly as a sitting bishop?

NAZIR-ALI: In 1994 George Carey and I were publicly attacked physically by the gay lobby when we were at a meeting of Evangelicals in Westminster. Then I was in the battle over the lowering of the age of consent. In the battle over civil partnerships, we defeated the government on the floor in the House of Lords on an amendment which widened the Civil Partnerships bill. Rather than the bill mimicking marriage, it included siblings and others who lived together for various reasons. At first the government said it was about justice. When we defeated them they said that it was really about gay rights.

I was on the steering committee when Lambeth 1:10. When the HOB of the CofE issued its pastoral letter on civil partnerships, I could not subscribe to this. I wrote an ad clerum to my diocese saying why I could not. Even though lay people could not be disciplined over homosexual activity, I could not endorse a relationship that the law mimics marriage to legitimize.

I did not attend the 2008 Lambeth Conference, but I did attend the first GAFCON conference in Jerusalem. You have to ask if you can declare the whole faith as the need arises; if you are always constrained by collegiality. Collegiality is to be highly valued but sometimes there is a higher loyalty. You can’t remain silent if that is under threat. GAFCON would not compromise on the faith once for all delivered to the saints.

VOL: On the global scene it is being said that Christianity, the world’s first global religion, will devolve over time into two forces – The Roman Catholic Church and Pentecostalism. Liberalism will die out having run its course. Do you think this is an accurate picture? If so, where will Anglicanism fit into this picture?

NAZIR-ALI: I think that is true. I would also add a certain kind of conservative evangelicalism will survive - the Tim Kellers of this world. The mainline protestant denominations will do their Cheshire cat act. What will survive may be an orthodox form of Anglicanism which is allied to Pentecostalism, conservative Anglicans or the Ordinariates. I can’t see mainline protestant denominations surviving. They will not be influential.

Pentecostalism does not have a global voice but it is bringing about transformation on the ground. Sociologist David Martin, perhaps the greatest living British sociologist of religion, says that when people are converted they change personally, in the family and at work. A new cycle of virtue brings about socio economic change. In Latin America Pentecostalism is doing what Liberation Theology failed to do.

VOL: Do you have any misgivings about Pentecostalism?

NAZIR-ALI: Within the Christian world, my fear about Pentecostalism is that there can be a lack of biblical depth.

VOL: It was reported recently in The Telegraph that China (despite persecution) is on course to becoming the “world's most Christian nation” within 15 years. That the number of Christians in Communist China is growing so steadily that by 2030 it could have more churchgoers than America. If this is true, what are the implications for Anglicanism? Do you know of any active Anglican witness in China today?

NAZIR-ALI: This is absolutely correct. The rate of growth is exponential - 100 million plus. Given the demography, it will continue to grow. There is no Anglican Church in China today, it has died out. “The Holy Catholic Church” is now subsumed into the Three Self Church which is recognized by the government. The Three Self churches are non-conformist in pattern, as are, of course, the much larger ‘house churches.’ Anglicanism survives in Hong Kong, of course, and it may spread again into the rest of China.

VOL: Anglicanism is still growing at a fast clip in Africa, largely through aggressive evangelism. Do you see that continuing or do you see it leveling off? Could African Anglicans be siphoned off into Pentecostalism?

NAZIR ALI: Anglicans are being siphoned off into African independent churches of which there are some 6000 denominations. Many of the leaders are former Anglicans. The Anglican Church in Africa was not doing what they are doing now. Two Nigerian Anglican Primates ago, Archbishop Joseph Adetiloye appointed the first missionary bishops. The truth is it will level off, they aren’t the people to evangelize. Thirty years ago there was a large animist population. Now many are Christians. Nigerians are sending missionaries to the Cameroons and Niger and further afield.

VOL: Homosexuality in Africa, particularly in Nigeria and Uganda, has led to strong condemnations by western pansexual Anglican leaders and some political heads of state. In your opinion, how should Anglican leaders have responded to their countries laws on this hot button issue?

NAZIR ALI: There are a number of things to be said. The reason those countries have passed these laws was initially provocation by the west, through aid programs to recognize gay rights. So it’s a reaction. As far as I know, church leaders have tried to moderate the reaction. In Uganda, the Roman Catholic and Anglican churches have tried to moderate what the government proposed and have succeeded. On the substantive question of criminalizing these things, it is not fruitful to do so and it is driving the situation underground. The matter should be dealt with pastorally. Christians should stand for equal civil and political rights for everybody, yet stand for the truth of God’s Word and His will for us in how we are made and saved.

VOL: Many of us here in the US feel that England is quietly being hammered from within by a growing, strident Islam pleading for Sharia Law in big cities not totally in control by the British Government. Do you see this as a real threat? Could there be more bombings in England such as you have seen?

NAZIR-ALI: The basic problem of Britain is aggressive secularism which has marginalized the Biblical tradition and created a vacuum that all sorts of things can fill. I had alerted everyone to the “no go” areas in Britain’s cities years ago and got terribly harassed with threats to my life and those of my family. We have been under police protection. At that time, I received 1,200 letters by ordinary people from different walks of life, with most saying I was right. In Sharia operated areas, there are signs saying "no short dresses, no alcohol and no gays." Sometimes the government removes the signs.

There is now public knowledge of attempts to take over a number of schools. There has been an infiltration into local authorities. Islamist movements have tried to take over one authority quite successfully.

VOL: Can Sharia Law be blended into British Common Law?

NAZIR-ALI: You can’t recognize Sharia laws in terms of public law, because western public law is based on equality under the law. Islamic scholars recognize there are inequalities, between Muslim and non-Muslim, between women and men, slave and free.

Archbishop Rowan Williams and the then Lord Chief Justice talked about ‘softer’ aspects of family law, but this is a myth. In the question of divorce, a woman is not equal to a man. There is the issue of the custody of children. A recent case was an appeal of a Lebanese woman who did not want to be deported as, under Sharia Law her son would be given to her husband. She won her case because the judge ruled that this would be a violation of her fundamental rights. In the issue of inheritance, a non-Muslim cannot inherit at all. Under Sharia Law, a woman can only inherit half of what a man inherits.

On the question you raised about future bombings, a large number of born and bred European and British Muslims have been going to fight in Syria. They will come back radicalized.

VOL: All the indicators are that Christianity in England is slowly dying with about 1.1 million attendees and not all of these are evangelical. Is there any possibility of the CofE being reformed and renewed or will that renewal come from independent evangelical churches?

NAZIR-ALI: The 1.1 million refers only to the Church of England. What is happening? The British Social Attitude survey revealed that in 1981, 47% of the population identified itself as Anglican, now that is about 20%. About 10% said they were Roman Catholic that is still the same today. 17% are non- conformist, that is still the same today. All the decline has been in Anglicanism though the non-conformists are not now mainline denominations. The main growth though is in black led churches. One church, the Kingsway International Christian Centre (KICC) has 35,000 members with its pastor Matthew Ashimolowo coming from Nigeria.

The truth is there are a number of dioceses on the margins. Recently there were three gatherings of the largest Anglican churches where the cut off was 350 adult membership (most were between 450-500). Out of 150 who qualified, 140 were evangelical and they are still around. The real question is how will they survive with any influence or will they survive as ghettos. When will people start voting with their feet? I don’t know; it depends. The deeper truth is that the evangelical strength is not represented in the decision making bodies of the church. Why are Evangelical leaders not being appointed? Why are faithful, biblical pastors marginalized?

VOL: I am being told that the next generation of Anglican leaders now in seminaries are evangelical, but to succeed they may have to belong to the Anglican Mission in England (AMiE) and not part of the established church. Is that possible?

NAZIR-ALI: Only a proportion are being trained for the ordained ministry in seminaries, others train in part time courses, and not many of those courses being taught are orthodox in theology. Most of the seminaries in England are not turning out solid evangelicals. Many are mixed with evangelicals and liberals.

VOL: I gather you met with the African and South American Anglican Primates in London and were in part responsible for the communique they delivered to the Anglican world. Does this indicate a turning point for Anglicanism in general and for the Church of England in particular?

NAZIR-ALI: What GAFCON needs to do is to develop itself into a viable ecclesial movement. We need to create a relationship between churches. ACNA is a good example. To recognize a church is an ecclesial act. At the moment, what we need with GAFCON is to meet in between the primates metings which meets once a year. We need an effective body that continues the work of GAFCON of clergy, bishops and lay people. GAFCON must be owned at the grass roots worldwide.

VOL: The Communique said this: “We are particularly concerned about the state of lay and clerical discipline in the Church of England. The House of Bishops’ guidance that those in same sex marriages should be admitted to the full sacramental life of the church is an abandonment of pastoral discipline. While we welcome their clear statement that clergy must not enter same sex marriage, it is very concerning that this discipline is, apparently, being openly disregarded. We pray for the recovery of a sense of confidence in the whole of the truth Anglicans are called to proclaim, including that compassionate call for repentance to which we all need to respond in our different ways.”

If there is no discipline with regard to priests entering into gay marriage with the tacit support of the Church of England (or turn a blind eye), how will these Anglican primates and the GAFCON bishops respond, do you think? Recently a priest was married, but he is a chaplain and not a parish priest, so it looks as though his bishop will do nothing.

NAZIR-ALI: It is nonsense to say a bishop cannot take away his license. He still serves under the bishop. It is not right to say you can’t do anything about it.

VOL: What role can the Archbishop of Canterbury Justin Welby play?

NAZIR-ALI: He cannot step in unless he decides to discipline the bishop. A complaint needs to be laid against the bishop for not acting. There are procedures.

VOL: As I read daily stories from England, it seems to me that Britain’s police force is programmed to arrest anyone who dares publicly criticize either homosexuality or Islam. A man was arrested in England recently for publicly quoting Winston Churchill and recently an American evangelist was arrested (and later released) for preaching the gospel. Whatever happened to free speech in England and England’s long standing tolerance for dissenting views?

NAZIR-ALI: There is a long history of recognizing conscience in England. The recent spate of hate speech and equality legislation does not sufficiently recognize conscience, although the Christian Legal Center does get people out, they still have to go through the humiliation of being put into a cell etc.. The (Lord) Carey amendment inserted some safeguards. In 2003, a bishop told a radio program that therapy had helped some with unwanted same-sex attractions. His remarks were considered a hate crime and he had a visit from the Police.

VOL: I notice that on occasion, Lord Carey speaks up about the state of things in England and seems very pessimistic about England’s future and the Church of England. Do you share his pessimism?

NAZIR-ALI: Black led churches are flourishing. Immigration and refugees are contributing to the growth of the church. Community churches are growing. The difficulty is with mainline protestant denominations. They are all dying.

VOL: Here in the U.S. the Anglican Church in North American (ACNA) is up and running as part of the realignment going on in Anglicanism in North America. It stands in clear opposition to the teachings and practices of the Episcopal Church. Do you think Archbishop Justin Welby will ever recognize it as a legitimate province? Should he?

NAZIR-ALI: I think the real question for ACNA is whether they are recognized by god-fearing Anglicans in GAFCON and the Global South. The mechanism for recognition in the Anglican Communion is to go through the Anglican Consultative Council and I doubt they would recognize the ACNA as the Episcopal Church provides most of the funding for the ACC.

It is more important to be in a living relationship in communion with other faithful Anglican Christians than with those who do not share the same faith.

Athanasius was not concerned with communion with Constantinople if Constantinople was not orthodox in faith. If Athanasius had compromised, we would all be Arians to day.

I think it is very unlikely that the ABC will recognize the ACNA in any formal sense. I think he will recognize the ACNA as an ecumenical partner. He believes the ACNA must reconcile with The Episcopal Church. However I don’t think it matters. At the Nairobi GAFCON II conference the ABC came and he received communion from ACNA Archbishop Bob Duncan. What does that tell you? I thought it was excellently organized.

VOL: What sort of personal opposition do you face on a daily basis in England? Do you still need to have Police protection for you and your family?

NAZIR-ALI: When something needs to be said, I say it. We trust in God and he has kept me and my family safe. I received death threats in Pakistan in the 1980s and in Britain in 2008. Twenty years later, I am still receiving them.

VOL: Is revival possible in England?

NAZIR-ALI: It is possible to have a biblical revival in the Church of England. Whether biblically minded Christians will be allowed to or have the courage to and claim the church for themselves is the big question. For the moment, the liberals and revisionists have a good grip on the bureaucracy and decision-making operations. They mostly don’t mind orthodox people as long as they don’t make a fuss.

Speaking freely, I do hope the next 5 to 7 years of ACNA are times of growth and consolidation. I think we must make sure that this is a time for greater recognition of ACNA in more and more parts of the Anglican Communion.

VOL: Thank you bishop.

END