VOL: You now face a challenge even greater than Chairman Mao's persecution: how will urban Chinese Christians fare in the face of the seductions and distortions of advanced modernity which is a leading factor in the undermining of the Western Church?

LEADERS: Our pastors are warning us about what they see is going on in American churches. They take what you call "seductions" very seriously. We are being warned not to be like the American churches. Post modernism is happening in China. It is very subtle. We are being taught to watch against self-centeredness, greed, sex outside of marriage between a man and a woman, and especially, the seduction of technology.

The challenges are coming from everywhere in all kinds of types, not just Chairman Mao but in modern times as well. Marxism is not entirely dead. Chinese leaders worry about how they will survive under the pressure if the government decides to put house churches out of business. Beijing and Shanghai are first tier cities and Christians are being watched even though they are non-violent and obey the laws of the land. The current challenges are greater than Mao's even though his persecutions were very scary. Chinese Christian leaders worry most about how to survive under pressure of the government to conform to the Three Self Movement churches.

Apart from the large capital cities, there are 30 provinces that have second tier cities like Nanjing and Hangchow. Third tier cities like Yichang and Wenzhou are also being closely watched.

Christian leaders worry a lot about material things like finding a job, marriage, and raising kids. They have material goals for themselves and their children. They see potential problems raising their children in new urban cities and they worry about their spiritual life and if they are mature enough to survive in the city. This is the Number One challenge for them.

VOL: Are there any liberal Protestant churches that you know of in China?

LEADERS: No. They could not survive. The gospel is everything or nothing. There is no place for compromise on what is true in the Bible.

VOL: Is the Three Self Church movement in China still growing or has it stalled?

LEADERS: Yes, it is still growing. Their churches are packed each Sunday. In Beijing the government wants all Christians to go back to the Three Self churches and abandon the house churches so they can control them. Some leaders in the (TSPM) churches have their own house church. The government pays their salaries of the TSPM churches. The independent urban churches have pastors who have regular jobs or if they are big enough are supported by the people.

House churches have full time pastors and many get financial aid from overseas and others have jobs. Not every house church has a pastor.

VOL: Are the rural churches still growing, many of which got their start under Br. Yun (The Heavenly Man)?

LEADERS: No. The populations has decreased as more and more Chinese are coming into the cities and there are fewer or no job opportunities in the rural areas. The farming industry is not profitable enough to support a family. Villages are emptying out with only old people and children under 10 remaining. The next generations are all going into the cities.

The government's policies are in favor of cities. There are also few hospitals in the country and medical costs a great deal more in the rural areas. Cities have better insurance and cost less if your employer pays for it. Medical is not free in China. It can be very expensive if you do not have insurance.

Every Chinese person has an ID card for the province they live in. If they move to another province, they have no protection or rights. Most of the small shop owners in Beijing are coming from the countryside.

China will soon face food shortages and they are already importing food. The farming industry is not profitable.

VOL: Tell us about the make-up of the Third Church movement. How big is it in China and what cities is it flourishing in?

LEADERS: It is hard to estimate, there are no official numbers. There are so many underground churches that it is hard to estimate what their individual numbers are. In Beijing alone, there may be 10 to 15 churches with more than 1,000 in each church, but that does not include the TSPM churches.

Pastors have to be both political men and gospel men. Pastors, for example, cannot preach about the resurrection -- the government will not allow it because it undermines Marxism.

VOL: Is there any theological training for a new generation of Christians in China?

LEADERS: Yes, we have some public seminaries, but we also have underground seminaries. We have Bible teachers from within China; others come to us from Australia. All courses are conducted in Chinese.

Christian leaders also come from Hong Kong, Taiwan, and Singapore to teach us. The United States also provides training for our people. We appreciate our foreign brothers and sisters coming to us. Church leaders worry about training new leaders because it cannot be done publicly. Church leaders consider that the most worrisome thing. Our Chinese Christians want to give themselves to systematic training. but find it very hard in mainline China.

VOL: The Chinese government must see the growth of the Christian Church and be concerned about it. What do you think is going on in their minds?

LEADERS: The Government has a big head. Before the Olympic Games, they tried to stop the growth of the Church, but that was not possible. There were too many social problems showing up like Falun Gong and independence from Hong Kong. Religious issues were not the most urgent of problems. Christians were not being aggressive and did not stand out; they were obedient and so were ignored by the government.

The truth is the government does not have enough religious staff or policemen to watch Christians; they have had to compromise. They watch the big churches, and try to monitor house churches where they are still very sensitive about their growth. They send in people to spy on church leaders, but they let the smaller churches be and do not pursue them. All told the government is not really in control of the situation and churches continue to grow with new converts every day.

VOL: What does the government fear most about Christians?

LEADERS: The loss of Marxism and democratic ideas. The universities are the most vulnerable sensitive places. Missionary work is strictly prohibited. Bible studies are conducted in homes. If they are held on campuses, the leaders are asked to stop or they are dismissed.

VOL: It is said there are 130 million Christians or 10 percent of the population who are Christian. There are an estimated 21 million Muslims in China. They pose a threat in Xinjiang province with connections outside of China and with terrorist organizations. They are always asking for independence.
Now there are reports that the government is promoting Confucianism. If they hate religion so much, why are they promoting Confucianism?

LEADERS: They know Marxism is failing. Government leaders believe you should have a philosophy of life that they can control, so they are allowing Confucianism.

VOL: There are stories that Chinese Christians are preparing to take the gospel back along the Silk Road to Jerusalem. How is that going?

LEADERS: Some churches say we should send missionary people outside of China. Every church worker believes it should happen. It is going on. Pioneers have gone abroad. Language is not a challenge. Maybe we will go to Africa next year and send brothers and sisters back to Germany. Chinese in Germany need to be served by Chinese Christians.

VOL: China is now a great power and growing more powerful with each passing month. It has a free market, low cost housing, nearly full employment and clean streets. Do you think atheistic communism and its attendant materialism will prove a dead end and people en masse will want something more...will they start asking deeper questions about life's meaning?

LEADERS: People like to read a lot of books. We encourage them to read Bibles. We pass leaflets around the churches. We cannot know what the bottom line is. Sometimes the director of a district turns out to be a Christian and helps things along, but he must be very careful. It is a very personal thing. Many people are buying books online. Chinese people read books on the subways and read Bibles on cell phones and hard copy. China prints more Bibles in many languages for the world than any other country.

The truth is Marxism is coming to a dead end, not even the government believes it. People say they want more money; they can be very materialistic. The welfare system is very fragile. Chinese people face three mountains: the hospital system, education system, and the welfare state after retirement.

The hospital system is a profitable industry in China. People who work for the government get free medical. The government pays for higher treatment in the cities; in the countryside, it is not very good and more expensive.

Also educational opportunities are not fair. Beijing is very good, but all primary schools are only open to residents of Beijing.

VOL: Do you think there will come a time when Chinese Christians you will re-evangelize America?

LEADERS: It will only happen coming from urban churches with church leaders who have an international vision.

For the moment, we have American Taiwanese evangelizing Chinese Christians in America. They are re-evangelizing in two ways: first by serving the Chinese people studying abroad with help of local Americans and secondly by going to former Soviet Union counties surrounding China. They are ready to be evangelized.

More and more young people are believing in a new China. They study abroad. They return. They don't believe in Marxism. No one takes Marxism as a faith any more. Chinese know about Western culture and study it as a subject. Our people can study the Bible as a subject. We have great hope in that.

VOL:

LEADERS: We are very hopeful for our generation. I work in parliament and find colleagues in government and they know something about Jesus. Most of my colleagues in Government don't believe in Marxism and are ready to hear more about Jesus. We have great hope in our hearts about the future of China. One of the problems is that pastors don't have good relationships among themselves and that is not good. There needs to be a greater unity among them.

VOL: What do you see as the biggest challenges for young people today?

LEADERS: We need spiritually mature young people who know worldly things can be a real challenge. If you are not a strong Christian, life's pressures can be very high in the cities especially if you are from outside of the city.

The biggest pressure comes from families, from the need to marry and the workplace. The hardest is for sisters who want to marry. She and her husband both must work. The pressure from the government is both good and bad. You can still go to church, pray and read the Bible, and be God's warrior.

Bad things can happen if the government sees we are developing faster or bigger. The government can intervene and put so many restrictions on us. The church can and should be more united with each other.

Workplace ministry is the new battle field to pass the Good News around and share the gospel especially intelligent people when they get pressure from the work place. Urban church leaders are taking take note of this.

VOL: Do you ever see a time when you wake up one day and see China as an officially Christian country?

LEADERS: Some pastors with the gift of prophecy say in two years China will become a Christian country, others say 20 years. There are booming Christian churches throughout China. God is preparing all kinds of people to speak forth His word.

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