Fox: How long has this disagreement, for lack of a better word, between your congregation and others with the diocese been festering over the issue of same-sex marriage?

Hird: It goes back actually six years since our former bishop and diocese voted for same-sex blessings. And then two years ago there were eight congregations that withdrew from the Synod. There are now eleven congregations that have formally protested and have declared a disconnection with Michael Ingham and the Synod.

Fox: Now those eleven congregations…Are they all in this one diocese of New Westminster in BC?

Hird: Essentially.

Fox: Are you aware of any other Anglican congregations (we are on in five provinces across the country) experiencing the same battle of opinion that you are?

Hird: Actually it used to be more local and more regional. But what has happened is through inaction on a national level, there is the same unfortunate confusion that has happened across the nation. The General Synod, which is the national body, recently voted to not take action and yet they took action simultaneously. It has got people very confused. They voted to affirm same-sex relationships, to affirm the integrity and sanctity of them, which basically defines them as holy. And so, what’s left to discuss.

Anglicans around the world are around 75 million. The view of Anglicans worldwide is that this is not where the Anglican Church is coming from. And there are a few thousand Anglicans off on the West Coast who are making it up themselves. We’re not telling people what to do, but we want to be faithful to the Anglican beliefs and practices worldwide.

Fox: So in the opinion of your congregation, this whole business of the Church sanctifying same-sex unions through official liturgies is just wrong, you’re just opposed to it, period?

Hird: Everyone is welcome in our church. We are not perfect, but we can’t make it up as we go.

Fox: Okay

Hird: We’re part of a historic faith that has some convictions and we want to be faithful to that.

Fox: Okay, I understand that part, Ed, and I wasn’t trying to sandbag you, sir. I was just trying to get your position clarified because now it has moved beyond a disagreement between a parish and the diocese in which that parish is located. And you have already told us that there are a number of parishes that are like-minded. But now this has bubbled up beyond the surface into what essentially is boiling down into a turf war, if you will, with no disrespect intended, because the diocese is threatening to evict you and your fellow members at St. Simon’s. Did you people not build that church with your contributions to the collection plate?

Hird: Our congregation has been around for 59 years, and we built it ourselves and supported it. We are a self-supporting congregation. We unanimously voted to dismiss our former bishop Michael Ingham and to accept the offer of actually five international Anglican Archbishops/Primates from Africa and Southeast Asia. And so now we have new Anglican coverage from around the world. We are not trying to tell our former bishop what to believe or what to do.

Fox: Right…

Hird: We have certain convictions and we would ask to be respected in those convictions. So we are just getting on with our lives.

Fox: Now Mr. Hird, what I am after of course is a legal clarification. For example, the title to the church and the property surrounding St. Simon’s. Who is that deeded to? The diocese?

Hird: Well, there is no question that it is deeded to the congregation, the people of St. Simon’s. And we are also legally incorporated and have been so for many years. That is somewhat unusual. Across the nation, it is not always the case that the congregation has the legal title.

Fox: I was going to say, it is usually the diocese that has the legal title to the parish church and so on.

Hird: We are in a very fortunate position. But the bureaucratic maneuver is suggesting because we have accepted a new bishop, therefore they use the word ‘parish’ as a bureaucratic word that doesn’t even need people in it. And they would suggest that a parish can never leave. Only individuals can leave. But in our case, the entire congregation voted unanimously to choose a new bishop.

Fox: So they are threatening you with eviction from a property that you own, that they have no claim to, so they don’t have a lot of legal ground to stand on, at least from this laymen’s perspective.

Hird: Well, we would certainly agree with you.

Fox: What about the other churches that don’t have the sort of clear title that your congregation does? Suppose in another part of town, another congregation with equally strong feelings about this issue disagrees with the bishop and so on, that is threatened with eviction. If indeed with that church, if the deed and title is held by the diocese, they can get tossed.

Hird: I understand what you are saying. What is unique to the West Coast is that the diocese many years ago encouraged many congregations to get separately incorporated.

Fox: Interesting.

Hird: So many congregations on the West Coast are in quite a unique position. But also there is a concept called ‘beneficial ownership’ Our lawyer Bob Kuhn http://www.christianlegalfellowship.org/Interventions/twufactum.html
(he’s the one who won the Trinity Western University case http://www.twu.ca/Challenge/), he’s a very gifted lawyer. He says that beneficial ownership which relates to the Christ the Redeemer congregation up on the Sunshine Coast, even though it’s held in trust by the diocese, the congregational members are the ones who have paid for, invested in it, built it up. Beneficial ownership is a very strong legal argument for retaining property.

Fox: We don’t have a great deal of time left, Mr. Hird. What is next in this ongoing dispute? Do you have for example a court date?

Hird: No, a lot of this is just basically public relations intimidation, and seeking to demoralize the congregations, and divide-and-conquer. But there is a great sense of unity, so we are getting on with the ministry, and sharing the good news. Everyone is welcome in our church.

Fox: So now you are called the Anglican Communion in Canada (ACiC). This is the new setup and the new affiliation.

Hird: That’s right.

Fox: Do you have a website?

Hird: Yes, we do actually.

Fox: What is the web address?

Hird: I will just get it for you right now. It is http://www.acicanada.ca

Fox: http://www.acicanada.ca/

Hird: And if I can just re-mention, we’re not rejecting anybody. Everyone is welcome in our church. We walk with people where they are at. We are certainly not perfect. We basically just want to be able to get on with our life without oppressive threats from our former bishop.

As Anglicans, it is like we have a roadmap that we have been following, and our former bishop has come up with a new roadmap and a new destination. And we are saying that he is welcome to go use a new roadmap, but please rent your own bus. And don’t hijack our bus. That is all we are asking.

Fox: Interesting analogy. Ed Hird, thank you for taking the time. We appreciate your joining us.

Hird: Yes, God bless.

Fox: Ed Hird, Acting Media Director for the Anglican Communion in Canada. And you and I both know this is far from the end of this story. We will keep a watch on it for you.

END